Living without Refrigeration
I just watched the presentation since I got the email with the link. It was very interesting and had lots of useful information and ideas. I’d love to see monthly samples of what someone would eat. I’d also like to see if anyone has made fish sauce the way they described in the video. Is that how Asian fish sauce is made?
My husband and I recently looked into getting solar panels but for some reason it is prohibitively expensive where we are living. However, this may be a blessing in disguise because I think I’d rather slowly learn to use less energy both to save money and to be more prepared for emergencies. So while I certainly won’t be ready to ditch the fridge anytime soon, maybe I can slowly move away from using it so much.
Preserving and gardening are a no brainer for me, but dealing with meat and dairy without refrigeration looks like a steep learning curve!
Comments
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@Megan Venturella Do you live where the lakes freeze over in the winter time? I know of people who still use ice houses in off grid situations. The ice lasts all year until the next freeze up if it is well insulated.
Root cellars will keep an amazing variety of produce fresh throughout the winter.
Or maybe you have a running spring where you could set up a spring house to keep dairy fresh.
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I really like the idea in the video of packing the dirt from the hole you dig for your root cellar into sandbags, and building the walls with those. That would sure cut the cost of building one.
Also , the point she made at the end was good, about transitioning into this lifestyle in stages. As you start eating more local and seasonal food and doing more food preserving, you cut down on your need for refrigerator space and go to a smaller, more efficient refrigerator first for a while, before going without one altogether.
@Megan Venturella I am skeptical about going to solar power as well. I looked into it and was also discouraged by the cost. But more than that, it seems like you pretty much have to be an experienced electrician to maintain the system and keep it running. Even if you can do that yourself, and not have to call a repairman whenever something goes wrong, you still remain dependent on suppliers for replacement parts when things inevitably break down or wear out. I agree with you that the better way is simply to learn to use less energy in the first place, and have an emergency plan for power outages.
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@torey I would be super interested in pictures of the best ice houses that you are aware of from those you know. If they have plans or tips to share, even better! We have talked many times about doing this and how we would make the ice blocks instead of cutting them.
We actually have an old ice saw we bought as a novelty. I am not sure how good it would be anymore for cutting ice, but it is a really interesting tool!
What also has fascinated me is a spring house, but you have to have the spring available first of course.
Some people up here used to store certain frozen items in grain bins through winter into the summer. There was always milk lowered into a well as well.
Tom Bartell did a presentation for TGN on a cellar he made. It was for the 2019 TGN Fall Summit, I believe. It could work very well in the right climate. Here, you may need to modify it somewhat so things didn't freeze in very cold years. I am not sure if you could find a link through a search? I think that I mentioned it to someone here a few months ago or so.
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@LaurieLovesLearning My brother has a spring house and it is amazing. Even in the summer you can keep milk and cheeses there. Probably meat too.
We have a town nearby that builds an ice castle in March. I should see if they have any videos of making the blocks
The amish near us can most of their meat. We have the amish that are not at all modern. Central Pa has amish that use more of the english ways.
Somewhere I have plans for a very small solar shed. Its portable and will supply most of your power. Our electrical grid is very bad in our area. They let it get run down to the point it barely works. We have been told to expect a lot of outages for 2 to 3 years while they get it repaired. This has made me start to look at using less power and alternative power. I would love to put in a water wheel, we have the water to do so, but I am sure my zoning board would fight it or make the process expensive. (So I have been looking at regulations trying to figure out how I can work around them legally) My main issue with getting permission is I cannot alter a water path. But - I think I may have figured out how to work with that issue.
We are blessed to have a lot of water here, even an artesian well, but water can change so I still try to practice moderate water usage.
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@Denise Grant What about a water ram pump? Here's the Instructables link.
And here is the Clemson link that he references.
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It is a wise decision to be as self-sufficient off-grid. Some of my friends have said they have plenty of food stocked up in the freezer in the case of an emergency. My response was, how are you going to keep all that food from going bad when the grid goes down? Drying and canning seem to be better options for me.
I still want a sun oven, though. I might send the plans to a carpenter in the area and see what he can come up with.
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@Tave I was thinking of trying the plans for the sun oven. My nephew loves projects like that. They do have payment options for ther sun oven now but I think I will still look at the sun oven plans. "save here, spend there" And yes, its always best to be prepared.
I also want to make a solar dehydrator this summer.
@RustBeltCowgirl I have looked at the hydraulic pumps. I have to have a permit to have one here and yearly inspections - BUT... I may have figured a way around their concern, lol. Love the homemade version
On my property I also have to take into consideration high water volume and ice in the winter (another zoning issue I am trying to work around)
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@LaurieLovesLearning I will ask around and see if I can get some pics. This is a link to a video about cutting ice at one of the resorts out in the Chilcotin. It must have been filmed by a drone and its a bit boring to watch. They use chainsaws to cut the blocks. It doesn't show the inside of the ice house but you can see from the outside how big of a building it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b68lyV2qLLI The video will go directly into a second video where they are using some of the ice blocks to build a structure (igloo?). Wilderness Rim is owned by one of the "Timber Kings" from the TV show. In the second season they did an episode where they were filling the ice house. My memory could be wrong on this but I believe they used straw bale insulation.
I worked briefly at another resort in the same neck of the woods and their ice house was a standard frame building with extra thick insulation. And about 2/3 the size of the one in the video. I think one of the big things is making sure you have adequate drainage in the floor. We will do a trip in that area this summer and I will see about getting into some ice houses to get pics and maybe plans.
@Denise Grant There are micro turbines that are very inconspicuous. They don't need a reservoir or a large wheel that is easily seen. I think they might be expensive to install but relatively cost & maintenance free once installed. This site has some different options. https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/buying-and-making-electricity/microhydropower-systems
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@torey Where I would like to put a pump should not be visible from the road and if I go small I should be able to put something around it to hide it. You would have to have a drone to find it.
I was also thinking of not setting it directly in the stream but have a run come off that. I could shut that down when water was fierce and I would not be blocking the main stream (their concern). I would really love to have a water wheel (cool look) but I know that would never pass.
Thanks for the link. I'll also look up making your own
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I do have a few shallow slow moving streams I can set certain things in in the summer months if I run out of room or electric goes off. I have used this method for when we make a lot of cider and need a place to put it
Add what we called a cement cow waterer and you would have a great place to put items you need cooled
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I'm fascinated by zeer pots. I considered making a few of them for produce.
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@karenjanicki They can work, but if you are not in a very dry area, like where its humid, the evaporation may not be great enough to keep things cool inside.
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This is the type of refrigerator my husband wants to build. Though he wants to include a large pipe dug down into the ground several feet as we have to go quite a ways down to pass the frost line and use it to help cool in the summer. Might be an idea for folks in the colder climates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w68z-YJvei4
Though I too want an ice house. We could build forms to freeze water in the winter outside and stock the ice house for the summer. Keep in mind the larger the block (as long as you can still handle it) the longer it will stay frozen. The you cut it to size when you are ready to use it in an ice box or whatever.
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That was my experience with them. When I lived in southeastern Washington state, where summers are hot and dry, I was without a refrigerator for a couple years, and zeer pots were a favorite way of keeping things at least a little cooler. I assumed it was a Mexican tradition, because an elderly Mexican lady taught me about them, though the idea probably belongs to many different cultures.
Anyway, when i moved to Missouri where the summers are hot and quite humid, I found this method pretty useless for keeping things cool. Was very disappointed....
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@torey I live in SC where it doesn’t stay consistently cold. As far as I can tell (this is my first winter here) the temperatures are a bit all over the place. It occasionally freezes, but not consistently. We have LOADS of rain and water, and a little stream that runs through. I wonder if that would count as a spring? Probably not...
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@vickeym That was what my husband was thinking too. Making forms was an idea, putting in a layer of ice at a time. This takes care of expansion issues and the potential problem of water not freezing in the middle of the block.
@Megan Venturella I suspect that that water would not be as cold as water coming directly out of the ground and would not be as effective.
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@LaurieLovesLearning Makes sense when you put it that way. Too bad!
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@LaurieLovesLearning Did you see this article about the boy in Lloydminster who built his own version of ice castles? It says foil pans were used to make the ice bricks. I think you would need something larger as a form for blocks that would last through the summer for refrigeration. Five gallon buckets are easily found but I think something square would be much better so they could be packed tighter. I am going to try to convince my daughter to build an ice house next year. We have the lake ice to use. But there is quite a bank to haul it up. Maybe a winch and pulley system with a stone boat on runners.
@Megan Venturella If you live in a climate that it only occasionally freezes, then the water in a stream would likely not be cold enough in the summer. As Laurie mentioned, it needs to be coming out of the ground to be cold enough for good refrigeration.
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@torey I hadn't. Our oldest boy was convinced that he should build an igloo in the worst of the cold. There was no denying that the snow was perfect, but...it was way too cold outside. He started getting frostbite on his cheeks.
We convinced him to work on it once it got a bit warmer, but when he went out at that time, noticed that the structure of the snow had changed. :( He did a lot of work, but never did get to finish what he had started.
I hope he gets the chance again next year.
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We watched a video where they said that adding salt to the water and then freezing it would make the ice much colder. I tried it. It did seem much colder, however it did not seem to stay frozen as long.
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When i tried to refreeze ice that had been used to make ice cream it just kept dripping and never really refroze completely. It was weird.
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Here's a link to some rally nice looking root cellars. Including ones with the use of salvaged materials.
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@Denise Grant Are you calling my Amish English? I'm going to tell them you said that the next time they're in front of me in line at Walmart buying store-bought donuts.
Seriously, I have a lot of respect for the Amish, whether or not they have accepted some modern ways. It just amuses me when people think that everything they do is old-fashioned and all-natural. Some of the plain people around here live a very organic lifestyle- but many don't from what I've seen and heard.
To get back to the topic at hand, there's a couple of spring houses in my area. I'd love to get a peek inside of one, but I don't know any of the owners.
For years I've wanted to give a try at living totally off-grid. I don't know if I'd want to permanently, but I'd like to try it. I also want to keep it low-tech; with enough solar power you can, in theory, have all the modern conveniences, but how is that any fun? I've planned lots of tiny rustic cabins in my head, but honestly, the refrigeration issue has always been the biggest mental hurdle. I've done loads of laundry by hand(well actually with one of these https://www.lehmans.com/product/rapid-laundry-washer/ ) and I've had a lot of fun thinking up my plumbing substitutes( Here's my faucet! https://www.amazon.com/Anchor-Hocking-Heritage-Beverage-Dispenser/dp/B00BWC0E42/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1TDR5D3SV10VO&dchild=1&keywords=anchor+hocking+beverage+dispenser&qid=1615081407&sprefix=anchor+hocking+bever%2Caps%2C186&sr=8-1 Here's my toilet! http://humanurehandbook.com/downloads/Loo_Construction.pdf ) I don't have much experience canning, but I know I could learn, and I'm a pretty good hand at lacto-fermenting veggies. I figure I can have a woodstove for cooking in the winter and an outdoor kitchen in the summer; I know this is an oversimplification, but it all sound like such jolly good fun until I think "No refrigerator or freezer. Nah, I don't want to change my cooking style that much." An ice house sounds like a seriously good possibility though; the fun is restored!
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@blevinandwomba The amish call us english around here. They have very rigid rules as to what they can and can't do, much more so than they do in your area. I like the amish but many do not in this area. I never figures out why.
I do have to laugh when they are out shopping here too. Around here they love candy bars and buy them by the bag full.
They do use chemicals on the farms and their greenhouses could glow at night from how heavy they blast everything. When I voulunteered at the one greenhouse they would come down and show us all the chemicals they used on the plants. I stopped buying from those greenhouses.
I just want to cut back on my dependence from utility companies and be able to adjust if for some reason I cannot have electricity or heat. My one friend has been totally off the grid for years. They enjoy it but it is a different lifestyle.
For this evenings entertainment I will check out your links!
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I know what English means in that context; my wording was just a bit awkward.
We have more Old Order Mennonites than Amish in our immediate area, though there are a couple of Amish families. They use horse and buggies like the Amish, but bikes instead of scooters, and more technology in general. Yes, I've also met quite a few people who seem to resent them. Someone was telling me just the other day that they couldn't stand the horse manure on the roads, and that they should have to contain it like parade horses. I'm thinking that I don't eat off my tires or anything so I'm not too worried about a little manure.
I've also know people who harp on how hypocritical Plain people are if they use any modern conveniences. I think hypocrisy depends on the context. If they tell me my car is sinful and then want me to give them a ride, well than yes, I think that's hypocritical. If they don't want to own a car because they're afraid they'd overuse it and lose their sense of community, but occasionally want a ride, I don't see any hypocrisy in that.
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@blevinandwomba We have 2 types of Old Order Mennonite here. One has been here for a very long time and dresses the usual Mennonite way (not sure how to describe that for you). The other is more Amish-like, in dress & ways, as you describe. This second group came from Ontario.
A couple visited with my (Mennonite) grandpa to learn the old ways of farming in that area (he had farmed with horses initially), to find out how to properly work with that particular soil. He was greatly respected in the surrounding community and I think that is why they talked with him. My grandpa was very happy to help them. My grandma, who was always fascinated with the Amish (even though they insist they are OOM), would have been over the moon!
I tend to call these folks Amish-Mennonite to differentiate them from the first group in Manitoba, because they certainly are not the same.
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