There has to be a better way
I was reading an article today... would like to source it, but I lost the link and can't seem to find it again. So, caveat up front: if my facts are wrong, please correct me!
Apparently GM has admitted that the electricity used to charge electric vehicles come from coal burning plants, by about 95%, and most of the rest from nuclear. And, the resources that go into building one battery for those vehicles equal the pollution from running a gas powered engine for 8 years!
Comments
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@judsoncarroll4 , this is why I'm such a slow adopter of new technologies. All too often, it feels like I'm just swapping out one "evil" for another that won't be realized until much later down the road.
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Well, the power has to come from somewhere. I don't think that many electric car owners think about where the power comes from other than from the plug-in.
Here in BC, much of our power is hydro-electric. We are in the process of building another mega dam that is creating quite a bit of controversy. Good farm land will be flooded by the project. But we do have some older power plants that run on natural gas, a few biomass generators and 9 rural communities that are serviced by diesel generators.
I looked into what kind of solar system would be required and for me, I would need a system that costs about $13,000. Probably more in CA dollars and it might not produce enough power in the winter at my latitude. I'm not sure how many panels that would take. Not the answer for everyone's backyard.
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@judsoncarroll4 My husband read something similar last week, maybe even the same article.
The people also don't think if the garbage left behind once the battery is finished. People already have just been replacing the cars rather than the expensive battery.
It is like wind power. Thirty foot deep piece of cemented by whatever other dimensions the length and width are. This is left as waste after the tower is gone. The companies are "not responsible" to clean the concrete up and no farmer has the capacity, nor money to do so. So, it also usually takes up valuable farmland and becomes a problem for a very, very long time. The farmer makes no money off the land rent payments when it is all said & done.
It is also like geothermal. Here is is regulated and you are supposed to go through a registered company. It is so expensive that in the end, when you need to replace it, you save nothing.
The green energy always has a huge cost and it never bodes well for the environment, only the big wigs' bank account.
Years ago, there was a lady in the US, if I remember correctly, that ran her car with water which was recycled. I was told that she disappeared when she talked about it a bit too much. So, it can be done, but you had better keep quiet if you figure something good out.
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@judsoncarroll4 If I come across the article(s) again, I will post the link. Maybe adults should be more like children and ask why, and where did that come from and how does it work?
You are absolutely correct: California in particular is going to have problems when their expanding number of electric cars defeats their dwindling electrical grid. Solar and wind are not enough to compensate for fossil fuels in electricity generation. There are already rolling power outages there. (Also water is being diverted from farmers, very bad for our country's food supply, but that's for another thread.)
Wind power: In addition to clean-up issues as stated above, the wind turbines are killing vast quantities of eagles and other birds. Where are the environmentalists and animal rights people? Reliability was shown faulty during the Texas freeze.
Solar power: Children in other countries are being used to mine minerals for these and the electric car batteries. (If I see this article again I will post it.) Also, the solar panels take up lots of land and are also rumored to be killing many birds.
That said, we installed solar panels before I knew about the hidden costs in other countries. We did not buy batteries, so if the power grid goes down, our solar power fails too. Living in the desert, though, I have a solar generator, sun kettle for boiling water and a Sun Oven for outside cooking. I also have a propane grill, propane stove in RV and a small portable camp stove. I will last for a while if SHTF. In the meantime, our solar will take some of the pressure off of our local power grid.
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well, I do not know whether it is already a “political discussion” and whether I should join in with my thoughts, but there must be changes in environmental protection. Otherwise we - mankind will destroy ourselves. We are already very successful in destructive activities.
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@jowitt.europe This hasn't hit political discussion status. There is no political parties or anything like that mentioned, and your post didn't cross any line. 😄
I do agree that something should be done, but as long as money and appearance is the motivator for these new technologies, it's not likely to change anytime soon.
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I think this is a good discussion about the pros and cons of all the alternatives to our need to power everything we have created for ourselves. I don't know of many forms of power production that aren't harmful in some way or another. We need to be able to weigh out the advantages of each system for ourselves, taking into consideration where we live.
Even though electric car charging stations are being installed in key areas of my province (Walmart & mall parking lots, hotels) it will be quite awhile before we are able to have many electric vehicles in my area, primarily because of the distance many of us must travel on a daily basis. Many of us drive trucks because of our lifestyles & where we live and I haven't seen any electric models that will do the jobs we require of them. Natural gas and propane vehicles have similar issues with distance as there aren't any natural gas outlets in huge areas of our province making it very difficult to fill up if you travel anywhere off the natural gas grid. And a lot of us live completely off grid. Alternative fuel vehicles are not an option in those cases.
Public transportation has become difficult because Greyhound no longer services Western Canada. BC Rail used to run passenger service on its north-south line but cancelled that a few years ago. If we are to use our vehicles less, then we need to have other options available. That would take some political will to solve.
During the "heat dome" I heard warnings for the first time that the western power grid was in danger of collapsing. If a few days of heat are capable of collapsing a grid, then how are we supposed to plug in more vehicles. Again, there needs to be some political will to make improvements to ageing infrastructure systems before there is encouragement to further tax a possibly failing system. A subdivision in BC has been put on hold even though many homes are already built (no occupancy permits issued) because they discovered, after issuing the building permits, that the sewer system isn't big enough to handle the extra homes. Complete lack of foresight by local politicians.
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I've been asking for a long time about what happens to the batteries in electric cars when they reach the end of their useful life. Do they just bury them like the nuclear waste and all the other trash?
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Yes!
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I had a diesel VW Jetta for a few years. When I looked at it getting 60 miles to the gallon as opposed to 30 or less for a gasoline engine, plus the fact that diesel is much less refined, I thought it was a good thing for the environment. Apparently the powers-that-be decided not. So now I am running on gasoline again. Have been watching electrical and am quite sure that it is not the answer. My sons have both been looking at electrical. One has bought one, the other has not.
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@Granny Marie I have seen a documentary about a factory in the Netherlands which recycles lithium batteries. We just need more of recycling plants. They would also provide working places and spare natural resources.
@judsoncarroll4 I think there are quite a few photos of diesel and gasoline car cemeteries all over the world.
To all. Well, I am a person who thinks that it is time to do something to stop the exploitation of nature and I am supporting all kinds of initiatives. Criticism is not a solution. Of course one has to retain a critical mind in whatever one does, but, as I always say: you do not like something - come with a better proposal. We here in this network are already contributing to cleaner environment as, as far as I understand, most of farmers and gardeners and animal farms use ecological way with as little pollution as possible.
Concerning huge farms growing monoculture it would be time to reconsider whether a mixed culture is not a better solution. It would be time to return huge agricultural areas to wild nature or pay less industrial countries for not destroying their forests for agriculture. There can be lots of working places in nature restoration and protection. And foraging instead of growing. Or developing wild nature farms from which one could harvest natural food.
We throw away tons and tons of agricultural products every day. May be it is time to consider, how this waste could be redistributed. I know that the members of this network are not the ones to throw away valuable products. If you grow something, it aches to throw away. I am speaking of mass production. Yes, if we grow in kind of wild ecological, mixed culture farms the food will cost more, but, may be it is time to eat less, but really a quality food. I am not writing about poor countries. This is another matter. It is time to stop exploiting these people and their natural resources. The natural resources should belong to the nations and not to greedy, rich investors, having no understanding of the damage they do to mankind, to the environment. Exploiters should be called exploiters and not “successful businessmen”. And modern slavery should be called modern slavery and not “working places” for 2 dollars a month. Earning millions and billions is not a sign of success. It is a sign of somebody doing something very wrong to fellow human beings and to nature. The profit has to distributed to those who produce this profit and then these people will have a possibility to live a quality life and eat quality food.
Is there still anybody not believing that we humans are causing all these natural disasters by so drastically changing the eco system of the world. I am 100% convinced that is why I have written this.
This heat in concrete jungles with black asphalt. At least the roads have to be white to reduce the heat, there should be trees parks everywhere. There are solutions, there should be more good will, redistribution of funds and deleting some to billionaires. They have no right to earn billions by exploiting people and nature.
i could continue and continue....
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I'm with you on monocultures - agricultural deforestation is my biggest concern.
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@judsoncarroll4 I have heard others mention articles similar to the one you are referring to. My husband did some digging into this prior to us purchasing an electric car. The big take away we got was, it really depends on where these car charging stations are as to how they are powered. In more remote areas and countries they might use diesel generators to get the power to charge the car. Others use coal. It really depends on what is available for the area the charger is going to be. That being said, we are almost finished installing solar panels to be able to charge the car. We get about 360 days of sun per year. I know the pollution caused by both the solar panels and the battery in the car, but hoping to offset that with reducing the other pollutants we would be making every day driving a diesel truck long distances and growing lots of plants.
I agree that we as humans are causing the natural disasters as we become hungry and stingy with all the things Mother Nature has provided. We need to get back into balance. Do more good than evil to this planet we call home. If I could find a better way to complete my 60 mile daily commute I would seriously consider it.
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My husband read that too. I'm not sure where the answers really lie.
There was a man who invented a car that ran on water and he was supposedly poisoned. There is a widespread belief that he was actually poisoned and they made up a phoney reason for his death and that the lawsuit was botched to keep his technology from being used.
I think it would be great if we could make a car that ran on salt water from the oceans. Especially since some people are saying that the ice caps are melting and we will be flooded. 😁
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@Brindy My husband said that more of those stories are coming to light in recent times. Sheesh. I guess that if a person figured it out, they would have to be careful to hide it and never tell anyone. If more than the inventor is aware of the process, it is already one too many, I guess.
What a crying shame, and so crooked.
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Another problem with electric vehicles is that they are extremely dangerous to work on! Car techs dread them.
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This is the same with solar panels, the power and waste to make them is almost worse than the cure sort of thing.
Also in Calif they are telling us to reduce our electricity use so what will we do when they need charging!
As usual the Government has not thought out the whole scenario.
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@Lisa K , that is somthing else I had thigh about too with the electric cars. When we are in winter months sometimes they limit or cut off our electric because there is too much being used. Do we just not have a car?
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@Brindy maybe they are expecting us to go back to horse and buggy ,,,, which may not be such a bad thing 😂
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So do emergency services personnel! My ex used to be an EMT, and they hated to have to use the Jaws of Life on an electric car because of the dangers it presented.
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If we have an efficient way to dealing with the 'exhaust', it would be excellent for our depleted crop lands.
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SO, I think a BIG part of the answer is to minimize our need for/use of electricity. What are your favorite energy saving tips? (do we have a thread on this already?? maybe it should be a separate one)
One of my favorites is to freeze-dry things.. on the surface, it appears to use more than not (FD is a bit of a energy hog), BUT, after that, it's shelf stable! No continued freezer use required.
I keep the house at 67 in the winter and 77 in the summer, using smaller fans to make it feel cooler (or we go to the basement for a while to cool off).
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@Paradox agreed!
When we redid the kitchen, we added a gas stove (before they were very old and inefficient electric oven and cooktop) we put in recessed lighting which are all LED lights, changed out all of the light bulbs with LEDs, we turn off lights and other things when not in use. We do not have air-conditioning and use fans in rooms we are in, installed double-pane windows when we first moved in and insulated a closet that was open to the down stair vents.
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I have wondered if someone is pioneering a recycling method for all of these batteries. I have wondered the same thing about solar panels - they are only good for so long and then what?!
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